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Ok, my twin girls are 3 years and 3 months old. We're having the oddest trouble with potty learning. They CAN do very very well when they want to. They've gone several days with absolutly no accidents and little, if any, prompting from me. They can hold it for hours and hours and will often go to the toilet by themselves.
But they'll often have days when they don't even TRY to go to the toilet. They'll just go in their training pants/underwear and not even tell me!! And then when I try to clean them up, they fight me tooth and nail!! They hate being cleaned up and I'll often have to litterally wrestle with them to do it! I know that's horrible but what choice do I have? I can't just leave them full of poop/pee? Especially when they were just wearing a pair of regular underwear and they'd end up spreading it all over the house!!
They hate being prompted/asked to go to the toilet and will often refuse no matter how much I beg, plead, bribe or make a game out of it!!! And that's regardless of wether they have to go or not, they could easily go themselves 5 minutes later! It's anyone's guess as to wether it'll be on the toilet, their pants or the couch!!!
I could handle the accidents if at the very least they'd let me clean them up afterwards!
Karen.
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The way I've seen it in my 8 years and 10 kiddos(and counting) of childcare PL has been that willingness seems to be the biggest issue on how quicky those little ones are successful. To me, that's more of a factor than the sex or age of the child. Are your girls independant type A people. That tenacity that can get things done and produce great leaders also makes them want to be in control of their potty issues too.
"look, see I can go where I want when I want" and when you try to clean them up it's like you are trying to take control back from them, which they don't like. They don't see it as a clean issue and you can't use adult logic on them either, so frustration insues! You know they know what to do. But will they do it? Before they ruin the couch.....
All I can advise is that this will pass. They will have less and less accidents(but they don't seem much like accidents, do they?) I also suggest verbalizing what's going on when they do. Be positive. Get support from us mamas on here who have been there.
I'm sure you are doing just fine with what you are doing now, it's just "the wall" that you've hit. Break through. Climb over. You and your girls can do it together.
Keep the faith sister!
Cheers! |
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One of my friends had a similar situation with her 3-year-old boy and her pediatrician actually recommended putting him back in diapers because at least in that case it was really just all about will, and since it's an area that you really can't win, take the battle away. I don't know if that's the thing to do in this case, but I thought that was interesting and different advice than you usually hear, since usually you don't want to back-track.
My friend did follow that advice, but after a while started making her son clean up his own dirty diapers (well, she obviously had to get involved after the attempt), and eventually he just decided it was less trouble to use the toilet.
With the twins I guess you have a whole other dynamic because they can spin off each other and you are dealing with this twice as much as with a single child, which makes it that much harder, I would imagine. The plus side might be that depending on their personalities, if one decides to stay dry, etc., the other might follow along.
I guess all that to say, hang in there and we feel your pain (and that of your carpet and couch . . .). |
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| My daughter was a breeze and now DS not even 2 is angry toward our potty chair. I had a friend use a timer. Every 15 minutes. She had a timer and it worked. Good luck. |
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| My daughter was a breeze and now DS not even 2 is angry toward our potty chair. I had a friend use a timer. Every 15 minutes. She had a timer and it worked. Good luck. |
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| You may have already tried this but it worked for me. What about letting the girls pick out their own regular undewear...cute little underoos (if they still have those) or whatever and explain to them that they can wear them but if they have any "accidents" then they will have to wear diapers again. For nighttime there was an agreement if there were three dry nights in a row then there was an end to diapers. If they CAN and are just looking to have some control then this gives them control. No idea how well it would work but just thought I would throw that out there. Best of luck!! |
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Oh, another thought is using a "double positive". Since alot of adult/kid stuff boils down to control of the situation. And you may be doing this already but, here's an example for PL:
"Oh no, I see that you are wet. Would you like to clean it up yourself or have mommy help you?" Thereby giving the child some sense of control but you still get what you want also. Or in a daily context:
It's time to go now, would you like to sit on mommy's lap or the chair to put your shoes on?" Again, getting your child to do what you want but they also don't feel like they are being told what to do all the time. You both get control without the battle.
Oh, and if they don't choose from the choices given, then you repeat the question followed by a sigh, then a begrudgingly "Well, I guess mommy has to choose then", like your actually bummed out that you have to control the situation!
Just another option you could try and see if it works for you.
Oh, and it works on hubbys too.
"Baby, are we raking the leaves before or after lunch?"
LOL!
Cheers! |
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the words of comfort. I do think that this does boil down to control with them. They were the same way with diapers (hated being changed, especially poopy diapers) and with soooo many other things. To say that they're strong willed children is a definite understatement. Quite the temper on them too...
I tell ya, putting them back in diapers is mighty tempting sometimes and it's occured to me numerous times. Problem is that we'll often have a day or more when they do wonderfully with absolutly no accidents so I'm just afraid it might be like starting from scratch if I put them back in diapers... I've been told to just have them clean themselves (and any messes) but I'm really not sure. I guess I'm just afraid that they'll just say no and we'll have yet another battle or they'll say yes and make an even bigger mess. I think I'd die if they picked up the habit their older brother had of smearing poop all over the place at naptime!!!!
I might try the timer thing. They hate being asked to go potty but maybe if it's the timer 'telling' them and not me maybe they'll take to it better...
I've thought about the underwear thing. I haven't done it so far because they already have all the underwear they need and we're pretty frugal so I hate buying stuff we don't need. But if it works then it's worth it... Of course, that means bringing the toddler terror team to a store!!!! 
We often do the choice thing with them for everything from food to clothing to games. Does help a lot and I've tried with potty too (Do you want to go potty before we get dressed or after? Do you want to go potty upstairs or downstairs?) but with limited success. Seems to work with other stuff reasonably well but they must have a huge mental block when it comes to the potty...
Oh, and if we're using this technique on husbands, wouldn't it be better to say "Baby, are YOU racking the leaves before or after lunch?" LOL!
Karen.
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I know--I shudder to think about what would happen were I to make one of my children to clean up his own poopy diaper. #1 is beyond that stage, fortunately, but he probably would have simply refused, since he couldn't have cared less about being dirty. #2, still a bit away from potty time, is just the type of goofball who would probably put it in his hair, and laugh.
My friend who did this would put her boy in the shower enclosure so that at least the effects of his work were limited, but I can't imagine it--and with two, oh my! |
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| Hi Karen! boy, oh boy... this issue, to me, spans so much further than just potty learning, doesn't it? - the battle of the wills... My sister had one like that. After trying everything, including putting him back into diapers, she finally just had to let him decide when he was tired of walking around wet, and sometimes poopy. Yes, it is so horrible to think about them walking around with poopy/wet pants and possibly spreading it around the house. But, it does seem to me, from the sound of it, that it is more a battle of wills than anything else. And to a certain extent, they win by upsetting you every time they pee/poop in their pants. I hate to think about battles between kids and parents, but it does seem that way, in the early stages especially, when they are feeling out their boundaries. So, perhaps you would win by just letting them deal with the mess they have made. eventually, they will probably want to get out of those clothes and may rethink the next time they need to go. If you don't seem affected by it any longer, the tension won't be there and neither will their fun. I don't know. I could be all wrong. It did, however, work for my sister. |
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| I have another thought, after reading more responses... I just think about all the times we as parents are so bummed when we actually have to follow through on what we promised would happen if they acted up... I.e. leaving a restaurant before the food, sitting there with them for as long as it takes for them to do what you have asked, etc (I had to do that today for around 40 minutes, but she eventually caved and was an angel after that). But, the bottom line is, they have to get a message - the message being, action - consequence. If the twins are like my nephew was, they will just love being back in diapers - then, they can go anytime, anywhere again. But, I don't know their personalities, so it is hard to say how they would respond. But, I do know, no matter who the kid is and what they prefer, after the fun of shocking their parents wears off, a wet or poopy diaper gets uncomfortable. So, it comes down to who can hold out the longest... the mom, who is hating knowing they are in that mess, or the kids, who are loving knowing Mommy is bothered by it. I also think about puppy training... They say you should never let the puppy see you clean up their mess, because it sends the message that you will always clean up after them, hence giving them permission to make messes in the future. So, maybe there is an element of, "mommy will eventually come and clean it up for me." Again, I am just bouncing off some ideas. Good luck, Karen! You seem like a wonderful Mother. I am sure it will resolve itself, one way or another soon! I will look forward to hearing how it turns out! |
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Hi Karen
I sm soooo there with you. Tommy will be 4 in 2 months and Sunday was the first time he peed on the potty independently, without prompting. I have tried to be low key cause I know his personality and asking regularly just got him upset. Last week I told him it was going to be time very soon for him to use the potty for pee, but I gave him the option of continuing to use diapers for poop. That, plus a few minutes of a computer game while on the potty (only once) got him going over the weekend. My daycare wasn't having any luck either until Monday, but now he sits on the potty (usually doesn't go).
I have also heard the suggestion about putting kids back in diapers because it eliminates the battle about control. IME toileting straregies are really kid specific. I know plenty of parents who can PL their kids by bringing them to the potty every 15 and I know several kids (my own included) who would never stand for this method and need to have much more control. Putting them back in diapers for 3-4 weeks can often work for these kids.
Looking at things from a natural consequence point of view, I agree with the pp who talked about having them help clean themselves up after accidents. The daycare did this with Tommy and he was not happy about it, but it did help a bit with getting him on the potty at daycare.
Good luck! |
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Thanks again all. Really nice to hear from you specifically tommysmommy, I know I'm not alone but it's nice to know someone out there that I can commiserate with.
I really don't know what to do anymore. Putting them back in diapers is very appealing. Only problem is that it will put an end to the potty battle but it will just make another worse. It's ridiculous how they hate having their diaper changed. They pretty much always have but it's gotten progressively worse till now we almost always have to wrestle them to take the diaper off. Ironically, it's often (though not as often) a battle to put it on at night too....
Yesterday one pooped in her nighttime diaper when she woke up before I had a chance to change it and the other did it in the nighttime diaper just before going to sleep. She would probably have slept in it all night if not for the fact that they had both wandered out into the hall and fallen asleep beside the kiddie bookshelf so we had to put them back in their bed. Of course this caused a huge scene when we had to clean them up. I was doing my best to wipe her clean (offered the shower as an alternative but she didn't want that either) while dh was doing his best to litterally pin her down. :sigh:
I'm just at my wits end with all of this. The diapers are the worst of the battles I face with them, but they're far from the only ones. Pretty much anything I want them to do they're likely to refuse me randomly as the fancy strikes them. Getting dressed, snapping them in their car seats, snapping them out of their car seats, taking a bath, getting out of the bath, eating or eating appropriatly (not on the floor, not in the living room, not standing on their chair etc etc).
Nothing is ever easy with these kids! Add to that two other kids and their homework every day (including my oldest who has serious attentive and academic problems at school, they think she has ADD, she's being tested now). Plus getting ready to sell our home in the spring and move next summer. I think I'm going to lose my mind... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Ok, that felt good, thanks for letting me vent!
Karen.
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Karen, it sounds like you could really use aavt's "nursing nest"! LOL!!
Man, sometimes kiddos can really be challenging, can't they? One day at a time..... |
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Maybe you should add some valium and earplugs to the nursing nest!
Karen, have you read or heard of _Parenting the Strong-Willed Child_? I haven't read it myself, but my SIL recommended it to me a while back (I'm still working on some of the other ones she recommended but somehow spend my time on this forum instead . . .). As with most parenting books I'm sure there are some things that are more useful than others, but she felt like it really gave her some good insights and stragtegies for dealing with her kids. From what I know of some of your parenting approaches, I think you are fairly aligned. Just thought it might be worth mentioning in case you're headed out to the library . . . |
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Sorry to hear you're having a rough time right now. I know how challenging it is to change a child who hates diaper changes and I only have 1 who protests, so I can only imagine the struggles with 2 children resisting it. There are a couple of things we've done here that have worked.
One strategy that has worked really well for us and daycare was letting Tommy pick his diapers. Because we use BGs at daycare, he was able to pick the colour. This made things so much better, especially at daycare where I guess he was really melting down. Maybe giving the girls that option would help. Or maybe the option for location.
Timers work really well for Tommy for transitions - getting in the tub, getting out of the tub, time to eat etc. Often he'll now run upstairs when the microwave beeps for bathtime.
There is a book called "raising your spirted child" that is excellent and focuses on changing our thinking about children who are "more" It is an older book so you may be aware of it but I love it.
Also, I was wondering if your kids have any problems with textures. Sometimes kids with sensory issues really struggle with diaper changes, bathtime & mealtime. Tommy definitely falls in this category and has seen an OT a few times to address this.
Sensory processing problems may sometimes be confused with ADHD because the kids get overwhelmed by the school environment (noises, smells, etc).
I may be telling you things you've tried many times but I wanted to share some of our successes.
Take Care
PS just reread your post about husbands LOL I totally do that all the time eg "Do you want to empty the dishwasher or fold the laundry"
My husband hasn't caught on yet either that I'm using a parenting strategy on him. |
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Have you tried changing the focus of the battle? I had trouble with my son and it turned into a power struggle. He knew I wanted him to go to the bathroom, so it gave him power over me to say no.
Anyways, here's what worked for me. I bought a small gumball machine and told him that anytime he went in the potty he got a penny and could get a gumball. For a few days, any time he did anything in the potty, he got a penny. After that, he had to do a LOT in the potty to get a penny. It changed the whole focus. Instead of saying "do you have to go potty?" when I knew he had to go but didn't want to take the time, I said "do you want a penny so you can get a gumball?". He'd say yes, and I say "well you have to go potty to get a penny". Then he was going because HE wanted to.
You can use anything your girls are fond of. M&M's, skittles, stickers, etc. The gumballs were kind of nice, because at least I could get sugar free. But they only get one when they go, so it really isn't that much. After a while, you start thinking of excuses to stop giving them rewards every time. Just brushed your teeth, almost dinner time, etc.
Good luck! |
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Wow - this parenting thing... I am amazed! I would like to take so many of these discussions and make them into a self help book. I am glad that I will be able to go back and reference all of your words, when it's time.
Karen, I just want you to know you are in my thoughts as you ride this time in your life out. I am sure you feel pretty overwhelmed. So, maybe just knowing you have a group of people who are thinking about you and pulling for you will at least give you some support when you need it. Take care!
Chelle |
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| Hey, just a thought if you've already got undies and don't want to buy new ones but would like to get some buy-in on the big-kid underwear. Depending on what they look like (if not already heavily printed), you can probably just draw or iron-on pictures. I bought my son some tighty-whities on sale and he didn't want to wear them because they weren't his old dragons. I looked into iron-ons, but getting some paper would have been more expensive than buying new undies, so I just took a Sharpie and drew on Lightning McQueen. This is not art, mind you, just a one-inch carish-shape with a lightning bolt and 95, but that was good enough for him (he actually then requested it on the front _and_ back), and he was thrilled to wear them. |
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| Or since you are the Queen of dying diapers, maybe you can dye their undies if you have some leftover dyes! |
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